In the last post, we traced the development of the stringency that assumed that every new couple must separate after the first intercourse because of the assumption that most women have some hymenal bleeding at their first intercourse. Even if they do not see any blood, the majority of the Rishonim (early halachic decisors circa 11th century - 15th century) assumed that there must have been some bleeding although it just got lost. Therefore, one must separate from his wife after the first intercourse.
This stringency, not mentioned in the Talmud (as we demonstrated that the Talmud only requires separation when there is bleeding) , places a tremendous pressure on the new couple in the beginning of their marriage. They cannot ever begin the normal course and rhythm of sexual life that usually occurs in an Orthodox Jewish couple until they get the "first time" over with (I deliberately chose this coarse sounding term, because that is the effect it has on the young couple). Once the "first time" is accomplished, she can count 7 clean days, go to the mikveh, and then in most cases they can resume a normal life of intimacy in keeping with usual Orthodox practice and avoid sexual activity only during the times of her monthly cycles.
Immediately after the codification of the Shulchan Aruch, Rabbi Moshe Isserles (1530-1572), also known as the Rama, wrote his famous "Mapah" the "tablecloth" that he felt needed to be placed atop the "table" of the Shulchan Aruch. The Mapah was written in the form of glosses and notes on the SA. In his glosses on the SA, the Rama typically listed opinions that reflected the Ashkenazic customs and halachic opinions that were at odds with the opinions codified by the SA. Had the Rama not done this, there was a significant risk that the laws as codified by the SA would eventually have replaced and nullified Ashkenazi practices and opinions that were practiced for centuries and fully legitimate.
The Hagahot Maimuniyot that we quoted previously was a classic Ashkenazic Posek (Halachic Decisor) from the 13th century, and he recorded the fact that in his day, many of his communities relied upon the Ra'avad who held that the couple only needs to separate after the first intercourse if there is indeed actual bleeding. Therefore, the Rama, in order to make sure this leniency didn't get forgotten, writes the following note on the SA (my own translation):
Note: There are those opinions who are lenient in cases when she did not have any bleeding (and therefore do not require separation after the first intercourse when there is no blood) The general custom has become that when the intercourse is not complete, rather he just entered her a little bit and she did not bleed then they do not need to separate. However, if he truly has complete intercourse with her then he needs to separate from her even if she does not see any blood (IOW we are stringent like the more stringent opinions) a person who is concerned about his spiritual well being (a "ba'al nefesh") should be careful not to "play around" ("Mesachek") with a young girl (Rama YD 193:1)
There are some clear conclusions from this Rama:
- The Rama clearly held that the "lenient opinions" were reliable enough to uphold the custom that was prevalent in Ashkenazi Europe during his time
- The prevalent custom among Ashkenazim at the time of the Rama was to allow for appropriate sexual activity between a new husband and wife, even involving genital contact, as long as they did not have full intercourse. This activity would last as long as she didn't have any bleeding. Certainly this could last even up to several weeks until her next period, and presumably even beyond that time point if they still haven't had "full intercourse".
- Once they did have full intercourse, even though there is no blood and reliable opinions hold that they need not separate, the Rama felt that we should be stringent. He was concerned due to the overwhelming number of Rishonim who felt that indeed they should separate even without any bleeding.
- In keeping with the general ideas of sexual morality taught by Orthodox Judaism, the Rama understood that this leniency might lead a newlywed couple to engage in all sorts of sexual activity when they are first married. He was concerned about the laxity in the attitude of holiness that this could represent. He therefore added a warning, that although as long as sexual intercourse was not "completed" yet one need not separate from his spouse, be careful not to "play around' with young girls, especially for a young man who wants to maintain a holy lifestyle
" (The Rama wrote) And the custom has become to be lenient" .. and due to this widespread custom of leniency (Pashetah Ha'Kulah") and our many sins, it has become widely known (to women that they need not separate as long as they don't have full intercourse) to women that the Groom will have sex with his new bride many times for many days as long as there is no blood on the sheets, and they end up (being guilty of) playing around with young girls, and this is not really considered "incomplete intercourse" because (often they) really are having complete intercourse, ... (Chidushei Hilchot Niddah 193:2)
Several points:
- The custom to allow for continued contact between husband and wife and not separating until "complete intercourse" was widespread among Ashkenazi Jews. Widespread was the words of Rabbi Eybushitz, not mine.
- Rabbi Eybuschitz had two worries regarding this custom, the first worry was that these couples were guilty of "playing around" ("mesachek") which he felt (and the Rama felt as well) was unbecoming of a holy young man (a "Ba'al Nefesh")
- The second worry was that they may actually be having full intercourse, in which case we should be stringent and make them separate as the Rama stated
Very interesting.
ReplyDeleteJust a small remark:
''Had the Ramah not done this, there was a significant risk that the laws as codified by the SA would eventually have replaced and nullified Ashkenazi practices and opinions that were practiced for centuries and fully legitimate.''
To me it appears more that had the Rama not written it, ashkenazi jewry would simply have ignored the Shulchan Arukh, thus further widening the gap between them.
I wrote before but it has not come on. So I repeat. You quote the Shach as saying that there are possible issurim involved in delaying the be'ilat mitzva. He didn't say possible issurim. He said issurim which means prohibitions. You say that the problem of wasting seed was a new problem introduced by kabbalists when it is meantioned in strong terms in the Talmud (Nidda 13a and other places). And you fail to mention the issue of delaying the fulfillment of the mitzva asseh of pro-creating. Of course if the bride doesn't want, the chosson is not allowed to force her but to try and make the new norm a custom which the Shach says involves transgressing several prohibitions is not right but I will read your response with respect.
ReplyDeleteI am sorry that your previous comments were not posted, however, I have checked through all of the comments that I received to moderate and could not find your comments. I'm not sure what hapened to them. I alwasy approve comments unless they are rude or obsecene or just random spam, even if they disagree with my opinions.
Delete1) The Schach - I wrote about the Scach extensively here:
http://rationalistmedicalhalacha.blogspot.com/2020/11/why-not-wait-until-couple-is-ready-does.html
While you are correct that I added in parenthesis the word "potential" issurim in order to indicate that the Schach actually wrote that there are "many Issurim" involved. I deliberately used parenthesis in order to indicate that I was inserting that word. I then listed three Isuriim that the poskim assumed the Schach was referring to. 1) The Issue of "mesachek" which is the diea that too much sexual activity was unbecoming of a Talmid Chacham 2) The possibility that they will inadvertanly transgress Niddah as the longer they wait the more risk there is and 3) The problem of haschatat Zera. The Schach clearly did not mean that waiting in and of itself is an issur, no posek ever claimed that there is an inherent prohibition in waiting a few days, in fact as I showed in the blog, it was a regular custum in Ashkenaz to wait. The Schach clearly meant that there are potential Issurim and pitfalls in not having intercourse as soon as possible. This is why I explained the Schach this way
2) Regarding the issue Of Hotza'at Zera, I have written extensively on the subject, and I recommend that you read through my entire series, as I reference the Gemara in Niddah and many other places in Chazal numerous times. Regarding the spoecific Gemara in Niddah see here:
http://rationalistmedicalhalacha.blogspot.com/2017/03/lets-get-back-to-halachic-basics.html
but please look at all my posts. Many Rishonim held and wrote clearly that there is no sin of "wastuing seed' as in extravaginal ejaculation, and understood those sugyot to mean something else entirely. I cannot rewrite my whole blog in this comment, please see that post and read my entire series on the subject. I quoted many sources and wrote many pages of analysis on this subject
3) waiting a few days after marriage until the couple is ready for intercourse is not delaying the mitzvah of procreation. It is part and parcel of the process of developing a loving relationship so that they can build a happy and healthy family. Indeed, if a couple were to deliberately engage in sexual activity for a prolonged period of time, and deliberately avoid intercourse in order not to fulfill the mitzvah of procreation, then they would indeed be guilty of the the "sin of Onan" which is indeed what many rishonim held is the definition of the the prohibition of Hotza'at Zera. Please look at my previous posts.
Thank you for replying. I have looked up your previous blogs and see where you are coming from. However I still have several problems with your halachic conclusions. It is interesting to read the Rambam's explanation of the sin of Onen but in halacha the Shulchan Aruch Even Ho'ezer 23:1 says clearly that we have to be very careful not to waste seed and the commentators discuss whether this includes normal marital relations with someone above childbearing age (it doesn't). The Beis Shmuel says also that, whilst we are talking about a serious sin, the expression "wasting seed is worse than all sins of the Torah" is not to be understood literally. Your discussion about takonas Ezra and it's connection with ritual impurity which is not relevant nowadays and therefore, in your opinion, should not have any relevace to how behave today, completely ignores the whole rational of takonas Ezra which is so that a talmid chachom does not sexual relations with his wife (as frequently as) a chicken. (Brachos 22a, Rambam Hilchos De'os). This is equaly relevant today and is the reason many men go to a mikveh nowadays in the morning after having relations with their wife. Too frequent sexual relations will often go together with lack of respect for one's wife which we all agree should be our concern, today as much as in centuries past.
ReplyDeleteYou have a very benign way of quoting the Shach. "The Shach does not like, thought foolish, should be abolished....The Shach says as clear as could be "This custom of not doing having intercourse until after two or three days is foolish, FORBIDDEN for several reasons and ought to be eradicated. He doesn't say that he does not like it and it ought to be forbidden. It is forbidden for several reasons. It just needs to be eradicated. Also you assume for some reason that this young couple in in Europe are lovingly getting to know each other. I think it's more likely that the chosson is taking wild advantage of his young defenceless wife, raping her frequently, all the time avoiding complete intercourse which would forbid him. This very senario was described to me by a certain battered wife. Also Rav Eybuschitz does not have merely a "worry" He says that delaying is"among our many sins." The fact that many did it does not mean that it had the status of a minhag which has some halachic standing. It is a widely transgressed sin, probably committed by the same ignorant masses that Pesachim 49b describes as "a lion attacking its prey." Finally from a halachic perspective, the prohibition of delaying the beilas mitzva bcause of annulling the mitzva of procreating even for a limited time is so obvious, it doesn't need to be said. The Ramma in O.C. 339:4 allows under extenuating circumstances a chuppa on Shabbos to avoid delaying even for one day,the mitzva of procreating.
I am sympathetic to your trying to solve a problem but do not agree that discarding clear descriptions of prohibuted practice is an answer. Of course, your description of people discussing personal details with their mother-in-law and all and sundry is surely fiction. No self respecting chosson would discuss anything personal with anybody besides their own rav. I am also interested to know what percentage of young couples have problems in this matter. Maybe a significant number but out of thousands of thousands who get married annually, it maybe only is a very small percentage. Yes, there is a certain pressure which in one sense is not ideal. To lose one's virginity has always been somewhat difficult (See Kesuvos 39b) But improved guidance by Chosson teachers for the chosson to be patient and kind, gentle and considerate, and for kalloh teachers to forewarn brides that the first time can be sometimes a bit unpleasant but after that it should be pleasurable would be a more effective and permitted way forward.