tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3108929999410529981.post2818844697233246726..comments2023-07-29T23:21:50.804-04:00Comments on Rationalist Medical Halacha: Medical Basis of Cardiorespiratory Death According to ChazalThe Medical Halachic Rationalisthttp://www.blogger.com/profile/14271640073285131396noreply@blogger.comBlogger6125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3108929999410529981.post-32196566762892756382010-10-19T19:55:33.510-04:002010-10-19T19:55:33.510-04:00If the pasuk is an asmakhta, that means that the g...If the pasuk is an asmakhta, that means that the gemara does not learn from the pasuk that breath is physiologically the source of life. The pasuk is then just a text that hints at the theme that the gemara is trying to prove. However, the gemara would have understood that the pasuk was not meant to teach about when halachic death occurs. Rather it would be the same as numerous other pesukim which were simply written Kelashon bnai adam. For example, no mainstream Jewish thinker today would claim that "Uveruach Apaekhah Ne'ermu Mayim" (with the breath from your nose the waters piled up) in the shirat Hayam Shmot 15:8 means that God actually breathed through his nose to make the red sea split! rather it means that God is so powerful that with a simple "breath" He can make great seas split (or some variation of this explanation) In the same way, when the Torah says "Kol Asher Nishmas Ruach Chayim Be'apav Mikol Asher Bekharavah Meitu" (All in whose nostrils was the breath of the spirit of life, everything on dry land died) all it meant to say was "all living creatures on land (as opposed to water dwelling animals that do not breath air) died. One can hardly learn from here that cardiorespiratory death is halakhic death. Rather, it is simply an asmakhta, as explained above.The Medical Halachic Rationalisthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14271640073285131396noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3108929999410529981.post-89891033714936422162010-10-19T13:57:23.197-04:002010-10-19T13:57:23.197-04:00"we still have a pasuk which is clearly telli..."we still have a pasuk which is clearly telling us that breathing is the source of life ("In whose nostrils was the breath of the spirit of life")."<br /><br />I disagree!<br /><br />The full pasuk is "Kol asher nishmat-ruach chayim be'apav mikol asher becharavah metu."<br /><br />It almost seems like it is a qualifier not a definition. For the pasuk to be a contradiction it would have needed to be written "Kol asher metu, ki nefesh chayim yitziah be'apavim" Or something similar.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3108929999410529981.post-25631130015471357622010-10-19T06:42:11.000-04:002010-10-19T06:42:11.000-04:00regardless of whether or not the chacham tzvi &...regardless of whether or not the chacham tzvi & r yonasan imply that chazals rulings were based solely on scientific knowledge, or wether chazal learned from the pasuk directly or used it as an asmachta, we still have a pasuk which is clearly telling us that breathing is the source of life ("In whose nostrils was the breath of the spirit of life"). We therefore cannot simply go about redefining that source of life (for halchik puurposes) as the brain or any other organ for that would directly contradict the pasuk.Tzirel Whttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09881242246625624227noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3108929999410529981.post-70799174745761670232010-10-19T03:18:24.255-04:002010-10-19T03:18:24.255-04:00Regarding the babylonian talmud...
Based on what y...Regarding the babylonian talmud...<br />Based on what you have written here, I notice a couple of things.<br /><br />1. Clearly, the majority of the verses are brought down as asmachtas. Regarding the verse of breath in his nose, it seems to me like this is used as an asmachta to put words into Abba Shaul's mouth. If it was not being used as an asmachta, it would be be used as a proof/response to the rabanan.<br /><br />2. I think one can argue that since the gemora is willing to put words into Abba Shaul's mouth, that this is then a case of logic and deduction and not an issue of messorah or Deoraita halacha.<br /><br />However, I'm not sure why the historical debates regarding fetus development is relevant. Maybe I'm missing something. Was the movement of the belly used to determine the status of life?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3108929999410529981.post-38460351088750666902010-10-19T00:24:15.306-04:002010-10-19T00:24:15.306-04:00Leo: This is the big problem that I am setting out...Leo: This is the big problem that I am setting out to deal with in this blog. There are no easy answers, but we can still try.The Medical Halachic Rationalisthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14271640073285131396noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3108929999410529981.post-36726097032604365582010-10-18T19:14:05.831-04:002010-10-18T19:14:05.831-04:00While I find your argument highly coherent and I o...While I find your argument highly coherent and I often find myself following a similar line of enquiry, the problem is that Chazal's contemporary understanding of science has permeated into halacha in so many ways that have been codified and cannot now be changed, whether or not they erred. To give an annoying example, the alleged threat to life of eating fish and meat together: as far as I know, only the Magen Avraham is happy to annul the gezeira on the basis of "hishtaneh ha-teva". This is a far cry from evaluating psuk according to "the medical basis of halachic principle".Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12043433296035010313noreply@blogger.com